Cowal Health & Social Care Forum.

Cowal Health & Social Care Forum meets monthly This is an open forum where people can attend and voice concerns they have in regard to the Health & Social Care services. Below is the minute from the last meeting held in December 2016 as well as the agenda for the meeting to ne held on Tuesday 20th February 2017. The meeting will be held in the office of Cowal Befrienders in John Street at 10.30am. All welcome


 Cowal Locality



Tuesday 24th January 2017

10.30 am Conservatory

Cowal Community Hospital






1.         Present:          Duncan MacGillivray, Convener

                                    Jayne Lawrence-Winch, Local Area Manager, Adult Services, Cowal

                                    Kate Stephens, Kilfinan Community Council

                                    Fulton McInnes, Hunter’s Quay CC

                                    Tom Law, Hunter’s Quay CC

                                    Jimmy Bell, Public

                                    Robin Creelman, Public

                                    Alistair McKinnon, Dunoon CC

                                    Max Barr, Struan Lodge Development Group

                                    Heather Grier, Member IJB

                                    Audrey Forrest, ACUMEN, (TSI)

                                    Iain MacNaughton, Sandbank CC

                                    Eileen Connell, Ardentinny CC

                                    Gill Wollers, Dunoon Observer

                                    Lisa Paul, GMB, Staff Rep.

                                    Eleanor Stevenson, South Cowal CC

                                    Kirstie Reid, Strachur CC




2.  Opening of Meeting


Duncan MacGillivray opened the meeting by setting some ground rules for this bigger than usual group:

Please respect everyone’s right to speak

Please speak through the Chair;

If you wish to be included in future correspondence regarding the HCF please complete the contact sheet being circulated.


  Duncan reiterated that this meeting like all HCF meetings is open to the public.


   Duncan mentioned the Press (Gill Wollers) is here today, however, the meeting IS a public forum.

   He also mentioned there were no apologies for today particularly from Mark Lines and Caroline Champion, whom he had assumed would be in attendance. 

Robin Creelman felt that some members of staff should attend but perhaps not all.



3.  Minutes of Previous Meeting


These were approved and seconded.



4.  Matters Arising


i)  Duncan pointed out that there have been no answers from Mark Lines regarding the £500 funding that had been mentioned as having been secured previously. This was a very important issue for the forum, its future and its ability to be meaningful


ii)  It was agreed that representation is required from Children & Families and we need contact with the Locality Planning Group and the Integrated Joint Board. 


Duncan stated that he is clarifying and setting rules for the meetings, so we also need to prioritise aims and raise the profile of the group; the public also need things to be clear with a line of responsibility. 


Although this meeting is quite well attended, the meetings are not attracting members of the public. 


Kate Stephens pointed out that not all committee members come to all meetings, but agrees we need a level of representation.


Heather Grier added that Viv Hamilton used to ask for any questions to go to her the week before and then she would answer them at the meeting.


Jayne Lawrence-Winch added that the new Locality Manager, when in post, could address this.


Duncan suggested that perhaps different groups could be represented on a rolling format type of set up.


Jayne indicated that this could be taken back to the Locality Planning Group to be addressed.


Max Barr feels there are too many groups, he suggested that Duncan could define what the Group does exactly.



5.  Dates for Meetings


Robin Creelman feels the Health & Care Forum is successful.  He would like to hold meetings elsewhere but has no budget at present to do this.


Kirsty Reid mentioned that she has been involved in meetings and would be provided with a voucher to attend and a young person would be accredited with attending the meetings.  They can come to meetings of  Community Groups which go on their C.V.  Duncan is interested in this and would be delighted to participate. Meetings were rotated in different areas previously.


Iain McNaughton asked if the dates for our meetings are before the LPG, however, Duncan isn’t sure, as he is still awaiting clarification if he can attend the LPG or not. The LPG is supposed to be considering a change of dates to accommodate the Duncan attending , as the chair of the HCF


Mark Lines has recently asked to have the date of the next LPG meeting changed – we are awaiting the outcome.


Duncan asked the group for a show of hands if they wished him to attend the LPG – unanimously said yes.  He has attended an LPG information session, but not an actual meeting.


Robin added that there is a deficit in how voices are heard at the Integrated Joint Board and it would be good to raise things at the LPG.  The public must be represented. The IJB used minimum places, which left space for locality groups.  Duncan indicated that’s the spirit of how it should work and issues to the IJB via the LPG.


Robin stated that in the end, the success of this group is the relationship between it and Managers and Clinicians, etc.


Duncan now brought up the fact that Caroline Champion had not attended this meeting either. Caroline is needed to explain some procedural and structural issues when these arise.


Kate added that this group has always been an open forum.


However, there have been problems since June, with reference to the official database, which requires agreement of the person to share their details, due to Data Protection Act.  The group feels the public should be able to join at the door – Caroline Champion doesn’t feel that.

People have also asked Duncan if they can become a member.

Robin feels that although Caroline is looking at this from the Data Protection side of things, that by putting your email address you are agreeing anyway.


Fulton stated that in the past a form has been supplied to complete.  Duncan added that this is why Caroline is needed to attend – to explain these things properly to everyone.



6.  Facebook Dunoon Community Council as Hosts for Cowal Health & Care Forum Information


Duncan informed the group that we can advertise in Dunoon Community Council  website and Facebook.  He is hoping to ‘piggy back’ in that.


Iain MacNaughton asked whether it shouldn’t be the Communications & Engagement Group that did this.  Heather answered that the Comms & Engagement Group are concentrating on the Re-Design at present.

Kate thought that as the Comms & Engagement Group is a subsidiary of the LPG, the Chair should be reporting back to this group.


Duncan informed everyone that David Ritchie, the Communications Manager, had asked him and Jimmy Bell to provide statements regarding the change of chairperson. Duncan had done this and forwarded to DR long before Christmas but had never heard anything else.


Kirsteen also mentioned that all other Community Councils communicated with Dunoon Community Council, so this might be a good route for information.


Iain says people are looking for articles in the local press, so he’s hoping for some information from here in the press.  Duncan would like a regular piece in the local newspaper.


At this stage Tom Law stated that Mark Lines and Viv Hamilton (now retired) had given an ‘absolute commitment’ , with himself and Jimmy Bell as witnesses, that he would supply money for Administrative Support.  Heather stated that an application has been submitted to the Integrated Care Fund and asked Jayne what the position is?


Jayne replied that bids have been requested and she will find out the date when the results are coming out. Duncan stated that there are various stories going about regarding the amount bid for going from £500 to £10,000, but nothing has been settled as yet.


Heather informed the group that Viv Hamilton had been very committed to making it work with support but things moved on and we don’t know where we are now.

Duncan suggested that they are trying to get on with the business in hand i.e. Struan Lodge Re-Design.




































7.  Struan Lodge – Where are We? What are the Views & Feelings of the Group?


Duncan has attended a couple of the meetings which have been arranged regarding this situation.  He asked if this forum could adopt a position on this issue.  Jayne asked if it would be useful for the group to know where the engagement process is with regard to this – yes.


  • A range of events informing and engaging on this issue have been arranged;
  • Leaflets for further dates, including February, and questionnaires are available at these events and your views could be stated online also;
  • Allen Stevenson is presenting a report to the IJB in April.


Heather reported from the meetings in Lochgilphead and Tighnabruaich – it has mostly been older people turning up and are commenting on what services are coming into the community; the organisers must also accommodate those who can only attend in the evenings.  Allen was at the Tighnabruaich meetings and and the attendance was much better.

Gordon Murray, Iona McCallum and Kenny Matheson visited the Fred Paton Centre getting first-hand knowledge about the Day Care Centre and how it runs.  This is a Charity not Registered with the Care Commission but supervised by the Local Authority and there is no charge.  An Alzheimer Scotland Centre in Clydebank and an Argyll & Bute Centre in Helensburgh (MIND) has been visited to get a feel for ideas that can be developed here.


Kirsteen informed the group that Helensburgh have lots of ideas for the Elderly and also for Supported Living -  this is for people who have been brought up in a home and had to leave the home and have been forgotten.  They’re helped to get one step ahead of others.


Heather added that we need ideas from all over Argyll & Bute, not just locally.


Coming back to the Struan Lodge situation, Duncan informed the group that after the ‘Informing & Engaging’ exercise and peoples views are gathered, a Report is going to the IJB.


Max pointed out that although the IJB were recommended to perform the Informing & Engaging exercise,  it was made clear that it would still go ahead but if the IJB can be convinced to keep 24- hour care, there is a bit of room as other things are being considered also.  Although he has attended the Communications & Engagement Group 3 times, the public are not really getting involved.  A new strategy is being produced but there is no money for the idea that Struan Lodge or CCH can be used for care.  It could be a Centre for Excellence.


There is to be a Public Meeting and a document at the end of February, and it is hoped this will be endorsed.


Everyone wants to stay in their own home as long as possible, but we have to be realistic about the demography in this area.

Robin stated that if anything significant emerged from the Informing & Engaging exercise, this would have to be considered, but he feels that there are big holes in the ‘engagement’ process.  They must get ‘best value’.


Heather stated that there is a Communications & Engagement Meeting on Thursday (26th Jan), where they will be looking at the up to date information communication & engagement process.  She is hoping lessons can be learned from the difficult start to the process this time.


Eileen suggested that people in rural communities should be encouraged to go to the meetings and the Health & Care Forum has a role in this.  Unfortunately, as Robin says, unless the issue directly affects them, people aren’t interested.


Alistair McKinnon feels that the decision has already been made and they are only ‘informing & engaging’, not consulting with people on preferred outcome.  Where do people go to get the decision reversed?


There was then a discussion on whether this move is a ‘Major Service Change’.   There were differing views on this, Max’s feeling is that the 6-8 items being changed constitute a Major Service Change, where Robin doesn’t see it like that.  Duncan finds it hard to understand, as do the public, Robin’s definition of Major Service Change.

Duncan asked the forum if there’s anything we can do to add or improve the process?


Iain stated that last week, Sandbank Community Council had hosted a visit from Allen Stevenson, Caroline Champion and Gordon Murray.  Allen raised the costs problem, meaning that it costs much more to keep a person in Struan Lodge (£1400) than in a public sector home (£500).

Max also stated that the figures as they stand, would mean a complete withdrawal of 24-hr care and going by the current criteria, only 1 home in Argyll would meet the criteria of being ‘successful’.


The Struan Lodge issue has already been consulted on in 2013, however, this was kept open meantime. In 2016 the decision was taken, with no information beforehand.

Robin accepted that the way in which the process happened this time hasn’t been good, however, the Government asked the Council to identify any shortfalls on budget and this information wasn’t available until May.  It was suggested that they would meet opposition.


There was a discussion then on the comparisons made between Struan Lodge and public sector homes.  Some feel that it isn’t a like-for-like comparison they are making.  Max stated that the figures are comparable in that, that’s how much it takes to provide a local authority bed, however, not comparable in that private care homes are means tested..


Alastair stated that there are no Private Care Home beds under £900 per week and any shortfall would come out of the sale of a house, etc. He can’t believe the £500 is correct.


Max Barr was asked to provide a proposal for the closing of Struan in 3 years. Duncan agreed to invite Max Barr back to this meeting when his proposal is finished.

  As things stand Duncan suggested that the HCF could not be considered to have a clear position on the future of Struan Lodge due to the lack of clear and reliable information. This should not at this stage be considered as HCF endorsemnt for the IJB / HSCP proposals for Struan Lodge.












































































































8.  Social Work Provision for Children with Disabilities.  Provision & Referral Process


Jayne agreed to ask Mark Lines to provide an overview of this service to be circulated before the next meeting.







9.  Suggestion Boxes for the Health & Care Forum


Duncan is seeking permission from the Forum for suggestion boxes to be put in Health Centres and Post Offices.  He asked ‘Any objections?’


Robin said perhaps not G.P. Surgeries, but it should be encouraged.

Heather will raise at the meetings she is attending.



10.  A Way Forward – Funding for the Health & Care Forum


The Group is seeking clarification from Mark Lines, as a local Manager must request the money.



11.  Any Other Competent Business


i)  Ward 15 Consultation (proposal to move the Paediatric Inpatient Services from Ward 15 at the Royal Alexandra Hospital to the Royal Hospital for Sick Children, originally made 2012). 


Kirsteen doesn’t think it should move – if its closed how are people going to get to the Royal Hospital for Sick Children? The easiest way is by train and No. 17 bus.  Heather also feels that appointment times for further away patients hasn’t been considered either – times are crucial as traffic queues can be huge at rush hours.


Duncan will distribute details of the link to the Consultation on this. Duncan asked if we are against closure/removal?  We should express concern for patients accessing the hospital.  Alistair stated that the actual survey distributed didn’t cover Argyll & Bute people going to the hospital.


Robin says that this can be sorted later but not actually done at the time – a marker can be put on the appointment referral so that the appointment is not made at an early time slot.  Fulton added that the time of actually have to travel is a big concern.


Robin stated that Stephen Whiston is responsible for Service Level Agreements and this avenue could be explored at a separate meeting.


Jayne added that there is an issue with the distance but would also ask for a late appointment.  She has also had to request return appointments here but not a routine occurrence.


This topic will be continued for discussion.



12.  Date of Next Meeting

Tuesday February 21st , 10.30 am ‘ Cowal Elderly Befrienders’ office, 128 John Street Dunoon.




Cowal Locality


Tuesday 24th January 2017

10.30 am Conservatory

Cowal Community Hospital


1.         Present & Apologies

2.         Previous Minutes

3.         Matters Arising

4.         Dates for Meetings – Cowal Health & Care Forum & Locality Planning             Group

5.         Health & Care Forum Functions

6.         How to Join the Health & Care Forum – can this be made quicker or                 slicker,

7.         Facebook Dunoon Community Council as hosts for Cowal Health &                   Care Forum Information.

8.         Struan Lodge – where are we?  What are views and feelings of the                 Group?

9.         Social Work provision for children with disabilities.  Provision &                       referral process

10.       Suggestion Boxes for the Health & Care Forum.

11.       A way forward re: funding for the Health & Care Forum.

                                                 Cowal Locality


Tuesday 13th December 2016

2.00 pm Conservatory

Cowal Community Hospital


1.  Present:     James Bell (Outgoing Convener)

                        Duncan MacGillivray (Incoming Convener)

                        Jayne Lawrence-Winch, Local Area Manager, Cowal

                        Caroline Champion, Public Involvement Officer

                        Eileen Connell, Ardentinny Community Council

                        Tom Law

                        Jennifer Woodward

                        Fulton McInnes, Hunter’s Quay Community Council

                        Lorna Ahlquist

                        Kate Stephens

                        Ian McNaughton




2.  Minutes of Previous Meeting


These were agreed as being accurate.



3.  Welcome, Introductions and Discussion


Jimmy Bell welcomed everyone to the meeting and introduced the new Convener to all present. Iain MacNaughton mentioned that he was having difficulty getting the Agendas and Minutes from his computer.  Monica agreed to send these also by post.


Duncan MacGillivray posed the question regarding a more efficient way of distributing information. Mark Lines had stated that the HSCP is happy to discuss a more workable solution to the current Administrative arrangements, which are temporary.  


Caroline Champion explained that the recent difficulties with information distribution have come from the fact that there are 2 lists compiled: The Argyll & Bute Health & Care Forum holds a Master Database of names of people who have agreed to let their details be shared – those on the distribution list for Cowal Health & Care Forum are not necessarily on the Master Database.  Caroline will be writing to everyone to ask if they wish to share their details and they will then be put on the Master Database if they agree to share details.  Duncan stated that he is happy to share his details.


Duncan suggested that perhaps a monthly, regular piece in the local press or suggestion boxes in several places would help, as the group can’t rely on just emails reaching everyone.


Caroline stated that this had been trialed in Mid Argyll and is another way of communicating.


Ian indicated that more communications and engagement is required, as suggested by the group of that name – what’s happening at that meeting needs to be known.


Jennifer Woodward stated that there is likely to be more involvement if the information is out there and available and some people need other ways of communication other than email.


It was suggested that the local press could be involved in the meeting, however, Caroline indicated that when the Public Partnership Forum had been created, it was agreed that that the press wouldn’t be invited so that ordinary members would have the confidence to speak up.


Jimmy stated that the press have always been in welcome in Cowal but Caroline said that there has to be a pan-Argyll agreement on this – some caution is required.  However, Ian stated that anyone could break confidentiality, not just the press.  Jennifer suggested that an agreement could be reached at the beginning of the meeting that everything said is confidential.


Duncan has attended a lot of meetings in connection with other groups and he has never had any problems.  However, Caroline indicated that more people are needed to share their experiences and not be put off by the press being there.  Kate Stephens reiterated that any member of the public could report to the press even if the press weren’t there.


Lorna Ahlquist stated that principles need to be addressed and it isn’t a forum for deeply personal stories.


Tom Law suggested that the new Chairman lays out the rules for members to abide by information discussed.


Alison McCrossan also stated that historically this has been a ‘Health’ group but that now this includes Social Care, so more explanation/information may be required.


Jayne Lawrence-Winch suggested that a presentation of how Health & Social Care interact would be a good idea generally.  Ian felt that information about the work that they carry out together would be helpful.




MD to send Minutes by post to I MacNaughton


(Mark not present at meeting)

4.  Matters Arising


a)  Administration Support – It was queried if the bid for £500 to the Integrated Care Fund was successful.  Tom Law and Jimmy Bell stated that Mark Lines had given a verbal agreement that money would be found from the Integrated Care Fund, but as Mark wasn’t present at this meeting, this wasn’t confirmed.  (However, it was confirmed that any Locality agreement would have to be between the 2 parties concerned.) It was pointed out that no other Locality has been awarded monetary support for this.  Originally, the Community Care Forum was awarded money and this was identified locally by Viv Hamilton (now retired).  Originally the organisation could apply to the ICF for £10K – the £500 was part of that.  Bids were put in at that time for the Community Care Forum and the Communications & Engagement Group.


New specifications will be put out for bids to support Communications and Engagement work.  Apparently, the Health & Care Forum wasn’t aware of this.


Duncan stated that he would really like to speak to Mark, who sent his apologies, as he would like to take the Health & Care Forum meetings out of the hospital environment, somewhere a bit more comfortable.



5.  Outgoing Convener


Jimmy read out the statement that he had submitted in his original application for the post and felt he had achieved his aims during his time as Convener of the Forum.  He introduced Duncan as the incoming Convener and wished him well in his Convenership.


He also thanked Monica, the interim Admin. support, for all her help.


6.  Incoming Convener


Duncan MacGillivray introduced himself and outlined how he see his new role.  He thanked Jimmy as the outgoing Convener.


Duncan comes from a Social Work background and is Carer to an autistic child, which is a service close to his heart. He aims to make sure people are welcome at our meetings.  He is involved in a Social Enterprise for Autism.  He is passionate about doing this job in addition to his other commitments and wishes to make the best of what we have. He quoted Shona Robison, Cabinet Minister for Health, Wellbeing and Sport, regarding Aims of Healthcare Partnerships. The Forum needs to look at the process and ensure it is done properly with expectations met.  He stated that it is a critical point in the Healthcare Partnership, e.g. the Struan Lodge Redesign and it needs a wider engagement in this Forum, just not in a hospital building.  Consultation is taking place now, however, the way this has been approached hasn’t engendered good faith – it has to be addressed, notwithstanding communication difficulties.  The ‘Key Message’ must be conveyed in plain English so that new concepts are understood.  However, the public must also be realistic about expectations from this, have clear information and be reassured that they have a part to play in any changes.


Duncan would like to see more involvement in the Forum and wants to make sure voices are heard.  Acronyms used by the HSCP are a barrier.


Fulton McInnes stated the reason the group has dwindled is because any ideas were not carried forward and they have become disillusioned.


Duncan has some ideas for his new role:


  • Broaden out contributions – out of the hospital or out of town;
  • Different ways of doing this e.g. Drop-In Centre for so much per month.  Whatever comes from this can be taken to the Forum.
  • Suggestion boxes in G.P. Surgeries
  • Publish Agenda – give an idea of what topics they can raise
  • Social Media – added to Dunoon Community Council? Either formal or informal.
  • Community Council pages
  • Perhaps attendance?
  • Funding – was verbally agreed (Tom Law stated that this may need a Rep from the Health Board to agree to)


Iain MacNaughton asked if the Forum had had any money actually granted – answer was no.


Duncan asked what would be required? A new spec to get funding from the Integrated Care Fund?  A new Spec is being prepared by the Procurement Team regarding the Spec required for the group(s), he needs to talk to them about this.


The language also all comes from the Government e.g. Redesign, which is a ‘softening of reality’ language-wise.


Jayne Lawrence-Winch stated that the Forum should look at ways of encompassing things within what they’ve got.


Duncan also asked “How do we fit in?” Must be submitted in stages to Locality Planning Group in the first instance but he feels this process is nonsense.


Lorna Ahlquist – we need to explore relationships between groups at the LPG. 


Iain MacNaughton will take this up to the LPG next Thursday.


Duncan MacGillivray stated that the Health Care Forum is an important forum  -  Jimmy added that the expectation is that Dunoon people go to all of these associated groups.


Kate Stephens – the need to communicate if reiterated at the LPG but nothing is done.  Information due to be put out after the LPG but this hasn’t happened.


Caroline Champion stated that the Health Care Forum is officially a Key Forum but that the Argyll-wide Healthcare Forums tailed off as they weren’t quorate.


7.  Any Other Competent Business


Jayne Lawrence-Winch stated that she had brought information and this information is also being shared at ‘Conversation Cafes’ arranged throughout the town, as there is a need to get people’s views. Survey Monkey has an online survey to complete and questionnaires available.  She appreciates that there is unrest but they need to find out next steps.  There is an event this afternoon in Dunoon, tomorrow in Innellan.  There are more in the New Year up country.


Alison McCrossan – hard to be clear who everyone is and their responsibilities – Jayne Lawrence-Winch is a Health & Social Care Manager. 


There is a Communications & Engagement Group meeting next week and the views so far will be discussed.  The public need to be reassured that something is happening.  Hopefully, this group will meet soon as well.


There is too much demarcation between different groups – clarity is required regarding significant change and this needs to be conveyed to the public.


Caroline Champion will take the article in the local paper regarding Key Themes to the Communications & Engagement Group in the New Year.  Alison McCrossan agreed on the need for the Communications & Engagement Group to take on board working with the Health & Care Forum.  Any draft reports go to the Communications & Engagement Group, the to the Locality Planning Group and then to the Integrated Joint Board.


Duncan MacGillivray questioned the integrity of this process – he would like to see information gathered independently evaluated.


Caroline Champion assured him that the Feedback Report is a stand-alone report: all feedback is in that document.  Summaries by the Communications & Engagement Group will help to ensure that correct views are reported.  However, there is a cost associated with independent scrutiny.


Fulton McInnes believed some of the previous information given wasn’t credible.


Jennifer Woodward stated that Mike Russell, asked them to reconsider their decision.


More information is available at the event and costs are available in the document; Caroline stated that more costs are available if required.


Jimmy Bell resigned verbally as Convener of the Health Care Forum to Caroline Champion but he will stay on the distribution list for the meetings.


8.  Date of Next Meeting


As the meeting wasn’t finished when Duncan had to leave, no date was set for the next meeting.





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